West Ham United 25/26 relegation thread

[muskie]

Odds slashed from 5/1 to 7/2.

Watch this space.

I think we're fucked.

[southbankbornnbred]

Even taking into account his “OK” (but getting worse) record in the Premier League (which is all that matters), there are some intangibles that you have to consider at clubs like West Ham.

Tuesday night was alarming. Joyously hugging Forest players as they left the pitch, in front of your own fans who haven’t seen you win for ten games, said a lot about Nuno’s mindset and lack of fit so far.

After a defeat like that, you don’t act like you’re more delighted for your former players. In the previous game, he went straight down the tunnel at Wolves and didn’t even encourage his players to go and visit the away fans after such a poor performance. Instincts are important. His are not good - he doesn’t seem to give a monkeys about West Ham or us fans.

My feeling is he’s in this for himself. We could be any club to him. 

 

[southbankbornnbred]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

NunoStats.png

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

 

 

Ah, the DATA!

I can’t take seriously an assessment of a manager with a win % ratio massively boosted by spells at the biggest club in a three-club league - and his highest win ratio in Saudi Arabia.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

[XKhammer]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

Fair play fella as its normally me who is an optimist but somehow this feels like we are going down this season 
The number of late goals we concede is costing us dear 

[stubbo-admin]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

[southbankbornnbred]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

[,]

Next season we need to start with Scott Parker as manager. He will be able to apply the breaks and prevent consecutive relegations.

[Mad Ferret]

Rossal,

I reckon Fab signs on for another year as 3rd choice GK.

[Rossal]

Next season we'll have 

GK  Hermadsen and Herrick 

RB KWP 

CB Casey Mayers Kilman Golambekis    maybe Mavro 

LB Scarles 

CM  Soucek Potts Orford JWP Irving Kante    maybe Magassa 

Wingers Summerville Earthy 

Strikers  Pablo Marshall 

[threesixty]

I'm half way between Thunder and Manuel.

Nuno clearly has been successful in previous roles...that is inarguable.  The outcomes of his management at West Ham are far and away the worst set of resuolts he's ever had in management.

To just decribe him as shit is probably not getting to the underlying issues he's having at West Ham with being successful:

1. Is it the squad can't do what he's asking?
2. Is it that he has none of his usual staff who are used to supporting his way of working?
3. Has his 'way' been found out and we're just in the wrong place at the wrong time?
4. Is working at West ham just an untenable situation given the current Director of Football we have in place?

If we look at the last season of Moyes as a defined period, then we have 4 managers in a row that have struggled to win games at West Ham, all conceding huge numbers of goals in the process.  They've all played different styles of football fundamentally. 

Are they all just 'shit' (they've certainly all had previous success in their careers at equivalent or bigger clubs than we are), or is there a bigger picture in play?

Everywhere else Nuno has been he's won as many or more games than he's lost, right back to the start of his managerial career and including at three other teams in the Premier League.  Makes me think what we're experiencing is not down to that single individual, but much more likely the wider situation at the club.  We've tried 4 different manager in 2 seasons...that hasn't worked.  Why would getting a 5th manager make any difference? 

At this point, I think we'd be better to stick with a manager who has a clear history of success managing clubs of our size, resources and stature, and to focus on addressing wider issues.

Otherwise we just keep rolling a 6-sided dice hoping the next number up will be the lucky number, when we probably need to roll a 7.

 

 

I just think it’s hard for the core group of players to unlearn basically 5yrs of incorrect training and basic discipline. I think every manager comes to the club and thinks the players should know basic shit and then is stunned when they have to refocus and go back to basics. 

We saw the same flaws in our play in the Moyes era. The difference was we had better more valuable players to get us out of jail. But when it went wrong it went wrong spectacularly. 3-0, 4-0, 5-0 etc. 

at some point we just have to start again from the ground up on basic patterns of play and discipline for all players. We can’t let some players get away with things because they are “special” etc 

also, who is the manager on the field. Why is the smallest guy in the team at the post on corners? Who let that happen? Why are we ball watching instead of picking up their no.10 who’s strolling in completely unmarked into the area waiting for a cut back? And who on the pitch is having a go at the players for this basic shit because it’s not Bowen. Dawson was pretty vocal about shit before, I don’t see Killman or Todibo / Mav say a word to anyone. 

[stubbo-admin]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

[Sanacs on tour]

you have to imagine that anyone we sign this window will have a decent relegation release clause added in to their contracts (maybe not Pablo as he is quiet young still) 

When we go down, there will be a mass exodus as well - some of which for the better

But what will we actually be left with as a squad for next season? There is a danger we will just be stuck with the older heads, that no one else wants to spend / pay their wage demands and some of the younger more inexperienced lads

[stubbo-admin]

I'm half way between Thunder and Manuel.

Nuno clearly has been successful in previous roles...that is inarguable.  The outcomes of his management at West Ham are far and away the worst set of resuolts he's ever had in management.

To just decribe him as shit is probably not getting to the underlying issues he's having at West Ham with being successful:

1. Is it the squad can't do what he's asking?
2. Is it that he has none of his usual staff who are used to supporting his way of working?
3. Has his 'way' been found out and we're just in the wrong place at the wrong time?
4. Is working at West ham just an untenable situation given the current Director of Football we have in place?

If we look at the last season of Moyes as a defined period, then we have 4 managers in a row that have struggled to win games at West Ham, all conceding huge numbers of goals in the process.  They've all played different styles of football fundamentally. 

Are they all just 'shit' (they've certainly all had previous success in their careers at equivalent or bigger clubs than we are), or is there a bigger picture in play?

Everywhere else Nuno has been he's won as many or more games than he's lost, right back to the start of his managerial career and including at three other teams in the Premier League.  Makes me think what we're experiencing is not down to that single individual, but much more likely the wider situation at the club.  We've tried 4 different manager in 2 seasons...that hasn't worked.  Why would getting a 5th manager make any difference? 

At this point, I think we'd be better to stick with a manager who has a clear history of success managing clubs of our size, resources and stature, and to focus on addressing wider issues.

Otherwise we just keep rolling a 6-sided dice hoping the next number up will be the lucky number, when we probably need to roll a 7.

[THUNDERCLINT]

It’s alright, Manuel said he keep Nuno even after relegation.

All things considered right now yes I would, and if he stays I think I will be proven correct.

Do you think he's shit?

If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit then yeah it's a crackhead called Nuno.

[Manuel]

It’s alright, Manuel said he keep Nuno even after relegation.

All things considered right now yes I would, and if he stays I think I will be proven correct.

Do you think he's shit?

[THUNDERCLINT]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

The fat lady sang at Fulham.

Since then she's just been shitting the bed.

We've not played Fulham away yet bud.

You know exactly what I meant you obnoxious bacon dodging cսnt.

[THUNDERCLINT]

I don't get why some people still have any faith in staying up.. this season we'll need 40ish points, minimum 35. Thats 21 more points.  7 wins from 17 games.. weve had 3 this season.

It isnt happening

Id be surprised if we get more than 26 points

We won't make 20 points.

The crackhead has 11 from 15.

Ignore the 2 wins which look more flukey every day and it's 5 from 13.

We look less like winning every game and we've just signed one forward who looks like he cares more about shaping his eyebrows than sticking a boot in and another for 96 times what he cost in the summer because the crackhead's partner in embezzlement is his agent and his dad used to peg him at Porto.

While this was happening we've added 5 to an already horrific goals against tally and are still just pondering signing a center half.

[Mad Ferret]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

The fat lady sang at Fulham.

Since then she's just been shitting the bed.

We've not played Fulham away yet bud.

[THUNDERCLINT]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

The fat lady sang at Fulham.

Since then she's just been shitting the bed.

[Westham67]

Forrest has mid-week games coming up. Our new front two could be our new Hartson and Kitson, and then there is Tevez

[Mad Ferret]

It’s alright, Manuel said he keep Nuno even after relegation.

[nychammer]

Where do we suddenly discover champions league form staying up would require?  We busted a gut against Forest and lost 2-1

We'd need shot of Nuno, and that's just not happening.

[Mad Dog]

I don't get why some people still have any faith in staying up.. this season we'll need 40ish points, minimum 35. Thats 21 more points.  7 wins from 17 games.. weve had 3 this season.

It isnt happening

Id be surprised if we get more than 26 points

[pdcwhu]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

[Massive Attack]

Mind you l did warn you all to be carful for what you wish for

I was always careful for wishing Moyes was sacked and that we went for Emery at the time. Unfortunately Villas Board are far more ambitious than Sullivan who resists stumping up any compo. We then compounded it further by missing the boat on Glasner who was out of work at the same time we continued limping on with Moyes till his contract finally ran out.

Moyes wasn't sacked as finished contract 

I know that's why I said till his contract ran out. I just personally wished he had been sacked proactively when the time was right in doing so for the best for our Club. 

[XKhammer]

Moyes started this rot, you fucking no mark

Mind you l did warn you all to be carful for what you wish for

I was always careful for wishing Moyes was sacked and that we went for Emery at the time. Unfortunately Villas Board are far more ambitious than Sullivan who resists stumping up any compo. We then compounded it further by missing the boat on Glasner who was out of work at the same time we continued limping on with Moyes till his contract finally ran out.

Moyes wasn't sacked as finished contract