Premier league - worlds best league.

[twoleftfeet]

Is it?

5-2
5-2
3-0
1-1
1-1

impressive set of results over 2 evenings.

whoops forgot the 1-0 Liverpool result. 

[threesixty]

It’s clear that this season most of our clubs are on a down season. Everyone barring Arsenal is somewhat below their best. To take this season in isolation to say English clubs are all shit is foolish. You need a much bigger sample size and trend to make that statement. 

Journos aren’t always right. No matter how respected it’s still just one person’s opinion. And they write things to generate clicks and talking points rather than just for the sake of it so often a bit sensational. 

 

 

They are just opinions yes. But to blindly dismiss these points is also a bit silly as well. Everyone knows the English league has historically had a more unique way of playing football. But as more foreign players came in and foreign managers the differences seemed to disappear a bit as we saw how Wenger and Pep  et al set up their teams. 

But it’s just interesting that we now have all the money, mostly foreign managers and players and yet, especially in this season, have regressed somewhat to using set pieces and long throw ins for even the top teams. And if that’s a better way to play football then that tactic should beat the best the other leagues have to offer. And in this season at least it doesn’t appear to be. Maybe a one off, who knows? 

so people ask questions.. it’s only natural. 

As much as it shouldn't be dismissed it shouldn't be taken as gospel either. As for the end of the premier league, one swallow doesn't make a summer, or one season doesn't make a trend. It's just been a season where there's not been a great performance differential between most teams, barring a few at the top and the bottom and everyone has been taking points off each other. Pragmatism is back to counter the teams who try and play football which is why the teams like Liverpool and City have relatively struggled. It's been incredibly attritional which has obviously had an effect on performances in Europe (whereas as mentioned, domestivally it's far easier for several of the competing sides in Europe), and quirks of last season have meant that the teams representing us this season have been weaker than in previous seasons and had a lot of coincidental issues this season- Spurs, Forest, Palace. One made it in by virtue of winning a weaker tournament and the others both were somewhat 'one season wonders' who performed way above expectations. There are lots of contributing factors. There will be a bounce back. Its only really Spain's big two and PSG who have arguably been better than most of the top English sides and that's par for the course anyway. 

To note that it's a 'down season' is perfectly reasonable. To insist it marks a downtrend or the end of power for English clubs in Europe is utterly premature at this point in time. The superior quality which is spoken about in terms of the PL is the absolute strength in depth of the division. While at the very top end you can argue the best/richest two Spanish sides are better, along with PSG and sometimes the best Italian or German sides- because the money and exposure absolutely flows to those few clubs just as it does to Man U and Liverpool, are and have always been on a par and are every bit as good as our best- bursting with top international players as they are. There's fuck all below them in almost all the other leagues whereas the PL is comparatively bristling with quality and competitiveness which is why it's called the best.

 

 

 

 

It can never be the “end of PL dominance” or whatever the click baity title is because even if PL teams don’t win the premier competition, the PL still is the most popular and largest revenue generating league in the world. Winning the CL is just icing it’s not the cake. 

I think the real question for me is what league produces the most successful style of football? And the other question is what league produces the most attractive style of football?

I think the fact that a lot of PL fans are disappointed with the attractiveness of the game right now. And if the attractiveness suffers as well as the effectiveness of the football at the highest level then that’s not great. 

but as you say. 1 season is not a trend. We’d have to see this happening over many seasons to draw any conclusions. 
Also for some the measure of our leagues success is our co-efficient and just how many of our teams get to the latter stages regardless of if they win it. So it’s horses for courses really. 

[El Scorchio]

It’s clear that this season most of our clubs are on a down season. Everyone barring Arsenal is somewhat below their best. To take this season in isolation to say English clubs are all shit is foolish. You need a much bigger sample size and trend to make that statement. 

Journos aren’t always right. No matter how respected it’s still just one person’s opinion. And they write things to generate clicks and talking points rather than just for the sake of it so often a bit sensational. 

 

 

They are just opinions yes. But to blindly dismiss these points is also a bit silly as well. Everyone knows the English league has historically had a more unique way of playing football. But as more foreign players came in and foreign managers the differences seemed to disappear a bit as we saw how Wenger and Pep  et al set up their teams. 

But it’s just interesting that we now have all the money, mostly foreign managers and players and yet, especially in this season, have regressed somewhat to using set pieces and long throw ins for even the top teams. And if that’s a better way to play football then that tactic should beat the best the other leagues have to offer. And in this season at least it doesn’t appear to be. Maybe a one off, who knows? 

so people ask questions.. it’s only natural. 

As much as it shouldn't be dismissed it shouldn't be taken as gospel either. As for the end of the premier league, one swallow doesn't make a summer, or one season doesn't make a trend. It's just been a season where there's not been a great performance differential between most teams, barring a few at the top and the bottom and everyone has been taking points off each other. Pragmatism is back to counter the teams who try and play football which is why the teams like Liverpool and City have relatively struggled. It's been incredibly attritional which has obviously had an effect on performances in Europe (whereas as mentioned, domestivally it's far easier for several of the competing sides in Europe), and quirks of last season have meant that the teams representing us this season have been weaker than in previous seasons and had a lot of coincidental issues this season- Spurs, Forest, Palace. One made it in by virtue of winning a weaker tournament and the others both were somewhat 'one season wonders' who performed way above expectations. There are lots of contributing factors. There will be a bounce back. Its only really Spain's big two and PSG who have arguably been better than most of the top English sides and that's par for the course anyway. 

To note that it's a 'down season' is perfectly reasonable. To insist it marks a downtrend or the end of power for English clubs in Europe is utterly premature at this point in time. The superior quality which is spoken about in terms of the PL is the absolute strength in depth of the division. While at the very top end you can argue the best/richest two Spanish sides are better, along with PSG and sometimes the best Italian or German sides- because the money and exposure absolutely flows to those few clubs just as it does to Man U and Liverpool, are and have always been on a par and are every bit as good as our best- bursting with top international players as they are. There's fuck all below them in almost all the other leagues whereas the PL is comparatively bristling with quality and competitiveness which is why it's called the best.

[threesixty]

It’s clear that this season most of our clubs are on a down season. Everyone barring Arsenal is somewhat below their best. To take this season in isolation to say English clubs are all shit is foolish. You need a much bigger sample size and trend to make that statement. 

Journos aren’t always right. No matter how respected it’s still just one person’s opinion. And they write things to generate clicks and talking points rather than just for the sake of it so often a bit sensational. 

 

 

 

 

They are just opinions yes. But to blindly dismiss these points is also a bit silly as well. Everyone knows the English league has historically had a more unique way of playing football. But as more foreign players came in and foreign managers the differences seemed to disappear a bit as we saw how Wenger and Pep  et al set up their teams. 

But it’s just interesting that we now have all the money, mostly foreign managers and players and yet, especially in this season, have regressed somewhat to using set pieces and long throw ins for even the top teams. And if that’s a better way to play football then that tactic should beat the best the other leagues have to offer. And in this season at least it doesn’t appear to be. Maybe a one off, who knows? 

so people ask questions.. it’s only natural. 

[El Scorchio]

It’s clear that this season most of our clubs are on a down season. Everyone barring Arsenal is somewhat below their best. To take this season in isolation to say English clubs are all shit is foolish. You need a much bigger sample size and trend to make that statement. 

Journos aren’t always right. No matter how respected it’s still just one person’s opinion. And they write things to generate clicks and talking points rather than just for the sake of it so often a bit sensational. 

[Takashi Miike]

I wasn't the one who called you a clown, FYI.

The thing with this idea of a national identity for style of play is that it really only applies to the league as a whole. You look at individual teams at the top level and they play their own game, and have the financial backing to build teams in that style. You mentioned Spanish teams:

Atletico Madrid use proper shithouse tactics: extremely physical, focused on defending, time wasting. Bit like Arsenal.

Barcelona focus on passing and possession, like Man City.

Real Madrid are all about pace and directness and hitting teams on the break, like many English teams over the years.

I'd say that the Madrid teams have more in common with the perceived notion of an English style of play than most of the top Premier League teams do.

he is a fucking clown

[chim chim cha boo]

I always remember being in Mexico about 10-15 years ago waiting for us to play in a bar on the strip.

As we were waiting there were two adverts, one for Spanish league football with clips of fancy Dan back-heels and assorted trickery, and one for the EPL which showed mental tackles with players getting booted into the stands, surrounding the ref and players pushing each other over and red cards left, right and centre, all at 100 mph.

I think it's the prem's physicality that made it so popular around the world and worry that with VAR and slowly making the English game into a non-contact sport isn't doing our game any favours.

[Alfs]

Far from best league going by the Forest Fulham game.  Bereft of any quality.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

I wasn't the one who called you a clown, FYI.

The thing with this idea of a national identity for style of play is that it really only applies to the league as a whole. You look at individual teams at the top level and they play their own game, and have the financial backing to build teams in that style. You mentioned Spanish teams:

Atletico Madrid use proper shithouse tactics: extremely physical, focused on defending, time wasting. Bit like Arsenal.

Barcelona focus on passing and possession, like Man City.

Real Madrid are all about pace and directness and hitting teams on the break, like many English teams over the years.

I'd say that the Madrid teams have more in common with the perceived notion of an English style of play than most of the top Premier League teams do.

[threesixty]

That article (and your own posts on here) would mean absolutely fuck all without the results of one single round of matches. It completely ignores the fact that English teams dominated the group stage (Spurs finished 4th!) and recent years of the competition in general. The ties aren't even over yet. It's just ridiculous knee jerk nonsense.

 

 

Whether it’s right or wrong it’s still a valid observation worth exploring. What I find crazy is you calling me a clown when one of the best journalists in the country is also making a similar point. Kind of says it all really. 

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

That article (and your own posts on here) would mean absolutely fuck all without the results of one single round of matches. It completely ignores the fact that English teams dominated the group stage (Spurs finished 4th!) and recent years of the competition in general. The ties aren't even over yet. It's just ridiculous knee jerk nonsense.

[threesixty]

If more English teams reach the final more than any other country why haven’t they won it more? Statistically they should right? 

For fuck's sake, 360. 2 of the finals were all-English. They can't both win, can they? Out of the 7 English finalists only one lost to a foreign team (Liverpool, both times to Real Madrid). English teams have not done worse than should be expected, by any measure.

There's just nothing here that can be argued about. The only teams who haven't done better than PL teams are those few who are richer than them. Money talks. Not style of play. It's that fucking simple.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ons-league

I'll just park this here... 

[Massive Attack]

I actually agree with this. English football has become very pragmatic over the years. The more the game moves forward with analytics, data and tactical optimisation, the more controlled and sometimes boring it becomes to watch.
 

For starters I would permanently ban all cunty i-pads on their tripods so everyone on the Bench can gawp over every single minute detail of the game that's actually being played out in front of them if only they could be bothered to pay attention more to the game as modern professionals. Seems almost like a form of cheating to rely on it during games and to apply intense pressure on the Officials over replays etc.

You take more of that shit away and they were told to rely more on brain power and footballing intelligence would we get back to a game that was more off the cuff and special to watch. If this shit was in the game back in 2000 they'd have demanded Di Canio to trap and control his wonder goal instead so to optimise the "Position Of maximum Opportunity".

The Data nerd virgins who have never played Football have successfully managed to infiltrate the beautiful game and taken it over to detrimental effect. 

[John Drake]

There are two separate conversations on here (although one is more of an argument). One is which is the most successful league and the other which is the most entertaining to watch. It depends on how you want to define ‘best’. 

I’m with Fabio on this. The Premier League is boring at the moment and too process driven. Maybe, it’s a cyclical thing, who knows? If the marketing hype continues to deliver huge TV deals what is the incentive to change things? 

I don’t watch many overseas games, but the few Bundesliga matches I have seen (a small sample, I agree) are far more openly contested. The problem they have is the dominance of Bayern when it comes to titles. But for a fan of Stuttgart, for example, does that matter? They are as unlikely to win the title in Germany as West Ham are in England. But they get to see better football.

[stubbo-admin]

I actually agree with this. English football has become very pragmatic over the years. The more the game moves forward with analytics, data and tactical optimisation, the more controlled and sometimes boring it becomes to watch.

Of course there are still some great matches, but when two top teams face each other it often turns into a very cautious game with lots of possession recycling and very little risk-taking.....

It feels like individual flair is slowly being replaced by systems and structure. The era of more open, expressive football seems to be fading a bit unfortunately.

Honestly, out of the big leagues these days I often enjoy watching La Liga and Bundesliga games the most from the top four leagues — they still tend to produce more open matches.

Welcome to the board Fabio!

[El Scorchio]

Agree. When you get too absorbed by data and stats and probabilities to win by any means it leads to stifling low risk regimented one dimensional football.

Funny really- it's exactly the same sort of thing Pulis and Allardyce and their ilk were reviled for doing 20 years ago and it was called agricultural anti football because of who they were and what clubs they were managing.

Now Arteta is doing exactly the same at a club like Arsenal, it's visionary, genius, and a blueprint to be marvelled at and imitated. Fucking ridiculous double standards

[FabioGoaliGreen]

I actually agree with this. English football has become very pragmatic over the years. The more the game moves forward with analytics, data and tactical optimisation, the more controlled and sometimes boring it becomes to watch.

Of course there are still some great matches, but when two top teams face each other it often turns into a very cautious game with lots of possession recycling and very little risk-taking.....

It feels like individual flair is slowly being replaced by systems and structure. The era of more open, expressive football seems to be fading a bit unfortunately.

Honestly, out of the big leagues these days I often enjoy watching La Liga and Bundesliga games the most from the top four leagues — they still tend to produce more open matches.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Oh do fuck off. I explained perfectly well why your "theory" was full of shit. You got way more of a contribution than you deserve, you muppet.

[threesixty]

If more English teams reach the final more than any other country why haven’t they won it more? Statistically they should right? 

For fuck's sake, 360. 2 of the finals were all-English. They can't both win, can they? Out of the 7 English finalists only one lost to a foreign team (Liverpool, both times to Real Madrid). English teams have not done worse than should be expected, by any measure.

There's just nothing here that can be argued about. The only teams who haven't done better than PL teams are those few who are richer than them. Money talks. Not style of play. It's that fucking simple.

 

 

Money talks not style of play…

ok.. thanks for your contribution to the discussion. Very enlightening!

[threesixty]

"When I watched PSG last season the ball was just a magnet to their feet. The passing and movement was just streets ahead of any team I’d seen that season"

until they got battered in the final of the world club cup by that English team from West London

 

 

Yeah that was unexpected. And I think there has been a drop off in PSG generally since they won the title. Not sure how serious that tournament was taken though. Lot of football played that season. 

[Takashi Miike]

"When I watched PSG last season the ball was just a magnet to their feet. The passing and movement was just streets ahead of any team I’d seen that season"

until they got battered in the final of the world club cup by that English team from West London

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

If more English teams reach the final more than any other country why haven’t they won it more? Statistically they should right? 

For fuck's sake, 360. 2 of the finals were all-English. They can't both win, can they? Out of the 7 English finalists only one lost to a foreign team (Liverpool, both times to Real Madrid). English teams have not done worse than should be expected, by any measure.

There's just nothing here that can be argued about. The only teams who haven't done better than PL teams are those few who are richer than them. Money talks. Not style of play. It's that fucking simple.

[threesixty]

In their respective leagues Bayern and PSG do not really have another team that is a consistent threat. In La Liga Barca and RM only have one another as a consistent threat.

The PL is different in that respect and the extra level of competitiveness takes its toll on a team the more so at the climax of a season’s work.

It will never happen but just imagine our top teams swapping places with say Barca and Bayern, thus Arsenal to Germany and Man City to Spain. Would a punter back either Barca or Bayern to win the P?

 

 

I think that’s a good point. General fatigue possibly towards the latter stages considering how physical our league is. 

the other side of it is that “iron sharpens iron” and teams like PSG who historically didnt play any truly hard games until they got to the latter stages of the CL ended up falling short until last year. 

When I watched PSG last season the ball was just a magnet to their feet. The passing and movement was just streets ahead of any team I’d seen that season. But would that work week in week out in the PL? I don’t know? Pep sort of did that for a while and then just stopped doing it and went with Halland and a more direct approach. 

it’s interesting to me how the styles in the different leagues are and how that effects the final games in the CL. 

[threesixty]

This is typical of you, 360. You say something utterly stupid and when someone points out why then you don't own up that you made a mistake or exaggerated things, you double down on it.

No-one is not comprehending your posts properly. 

Your quote: "I think prem teams will always find it hard to win the CL"
Reality: PL teams won 3 out of the last 7.

Your quote: "PL teams just get unstuck at the latter stages as the style of play in Spain etc just suits CL style more."
Reality: More PL teams in the final than any other nation, by a large margin. No Spanish team except Real Madrid has reached the final in 10 years.

Your quote: "The point is at the very top of the football tree the playing style matters as well as the money. The PL has far more money than all the other leagues yet has won it 3 times in that period and 2 of those finals were two PL sides competing against each other."
Reality: According to Deloitte there are 4 clubs in the world who are richer than any PL team. These 4 are the ONLY non-English clubs to have reached the final in the last 10 years.

 

 

If more English teams reach the final more than any other country why haven’t they won it more? Statistically they should right? 

So what is the issue then? The PL teams are just unlucky to not win the title considering they seemingly batter everyone else, have more money to pay top players etc, they should have won it more right?

my point is simply the PL has a different style of play than the CL and it shows at the latter stages. it’s a theory. And I think that these last 2 years specifically have shown an even bigger change in the way some of the top teams in the PL are approaching things which I feel will exacerbate the issue. But we will see, I could easily be wrong and they go on to win this season. 

I don’t mind an argument to prove my otherwise, and your stats are also compelling. But how do you explain our lack of success in winning? Or do you think we have just the right amount of success in this competition? 

[,]

In their respective leagues Bayern and PSG do not really have another team that is a consistent threat. In La Liga Barca and RM only have one another as a consistent threat.

The PL is different in that respect and the extra level of competitiveness takes its toll on a team the more so at the climax of a season’s work.

It will never happen but just imagine our top teams swapping places with say Barca and Bayern, thus Arsenal to Germany and Man City to Spain. Would a punter back either Barca or Bayern to win the P?

[Takashi Miike]

the top Spanish teams have about half a dozen tough league games a season, the comparison is pointless as they're playing in a pub league